**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 15 17:57:36 2000 --> Kasin (~glennb@pandius.ichr.uwa.edu.au) has joined #rpg2 hiya Hi The 3ed program doesn't run on NT. I'm glad I have 98 at home now. * Kasin nods it mentions that somewhere, a problem with directx what do you think? BTW, did you play the paladin in Diablo 2? I'm currently doing it now with the pal I haven't installed the 3ed program yet. I'll tell you when I do. I've seen it done/done it with the amazon, sorceress, and now paladin ok I thought you had, judging by your comments about it The necro is fun ... except he can't take the big guys. I've noticed that the different chars can tae different ones on Nope. I downloaded the conversion guide. My comments where from that. like the sorceress can take on ones that the pal has trouble with, and v-v oh, ok Reben would be nice under 3e Hmm... looks like I don't have a good enough DirectX version for the 3ed prog. :( Yep. Very. :( so many feats to choose from would make him nice in combat while kasin would be a demon when on 4 legs :) As it should be. yep, as it should be mind ypou, he is already good with a sword - just Kasin has the magical fruit I've decided I'm not going to make up that chars under 3ed - I'd be too tempted to suggest a change, probably. :) I think kasin would be quite difficult to do, since many of her high level stuff isn't present Yep. also, it would be a shame to have wasted all that time on mastery only to loose it now! * GM grins evilly. well, at least kasin has grand mastery now sophie has gone to return a video, so we have a while to ourselves Ah. Had to be done tonight, eh? :( perhaps Kasin could have a chat with *mumble mumble*? (abdin) glad I keep lists of these things! Hmm... my notes from last week aren't showing up. :( Ah, wordpad saved it as a rtf... ok, converting. mine are html :) * Kasin waits What did you want to talk with Pharid Abdin about? well, religion for a start * GM nods. plus she wants to know more about this place, and Abi-dalzim. plus more about him, his friend, his horse, etc * Kasin starts pumping * GM covers his easr with his hands, closes his eyes and starts humming. Hummmmm....... * Kasin smiles op me BTW? --- GM gives channel operator status to Kasin So, want to ask a question? ok Phadi Abdin, we spoke earlier about other religions, and souls Could you tell me what you believe about this? (Assume PA talking.) (pa?) Well, as I have said there is some debate on the issue. (oh, I see) (Phadi Abdin - or Ab if you like.) (i get it) * Kasin nods to pa Some believe that non-believers have no souls. * Kasin nods These are the ones who believe that attempting to convert others is a waste of time, obviously. Myself, I think that they must have souls. However their souls will not ascend to heaven, obviously. * Kasin nods We believe that they won't assend to my, or your, heaven either. they assend to the heaven of their deity instead * GM nods. Since we don't really acnowledge other deities, such beliefs are held to be blasphemy. even the followers of evil deities do so, although we would consider it hell I see * Kasin shrugs Well, we are quite certain that it is true As are we. * Kasin smiles From where has this belief arose? From the teachings of the prophet, of course. Did he actually say this? That they don't go to heaven? Yes. I'm wondering if it has since been taken out of context thats all since it is true, but on;y after a fashion I said earlier about groups of deities, would you like to hear my explanation? The teachings do say that there is no God but the One God. * Kasin shakes her head Then I disagree with those teachings (watches for reaction) My deity also disagrees with those teachings (calmly) Then you and your deity are wrong. (Sophie would love that one!) (yep) In what way? In what way are we wrong? For a start, if you believe that your deity has told you that this is incorrect then either you are misled in your faith, or you were given a false vision. My deity has not told me this, I have seen it with my own eyes my deity is married after all If your deity is married, then I am afraid you do not follow God after all. I am sorry for you. (thats what kasin thinks anwyay :) (He looks genuinely sorry for you.) Why is this? How do you know? Because obviously you are being misled by a wicked demon. Even evil sometimes hide it's face in a mask of goodness. Why obviously? Because there is only one God. And God is not married. Any other so-called god is either an aspect of God, or a demon. Or just false beliefs. How do you know that god is not married? Marriage is a mortal thing. Not divine. Ok, perhaps bad choice of words then I don't kow how to put it appropriately Perhaps you meant that God showed particular favor towards a woman? I suppose you could call it that * Kasin looks doubtful Was this woman mortal, or one of the immortals? Immortal definitely a deity in her own right There is a problem again there. Unless perhaps both are aspects of God? well, I suppose it's possible. Not very likely what is the problem? The problem is that if you claim the existance of two gods, then you are going against the Teachings. what do the teachings say, exactly, on the subject? (sorry Hannes!) "There is no God but the True God. All others wearing divine masks are either Aspects of His greatness or else deceptions from the Evils." * Kasin shakes her head That is wrong That is, currently anwyay Pb looks confused. Currently? I said that, because it is possible that it was the case before the gods as we know it were born Pb nods. So you are saying that God may have brought other, lesser deities into being to war against the demons? ah! the demons! now I see.... hmmmm * Kasin sighs I wish you hadn't told me that Why is that? It confirms some suspicions I have which is information which I shouldn't know Pb looks ocncerned. at least, which I don't think I should know Oh well, I'll just have to live with it I don't understand. If God didn't wish you to know, then you could not without first turning to evil. * Kasin shakes her head the gods do not control our actions, our decions are ours to make if they were not, where is the struggle against temptation and against evil? True, but information about the divine can only come from the divine or the dark. We cannot merely "think" such things from no information. no, i did have some infromation Then where did you get the information? one can work things out if you are presented with sufficneint information from which to base conclusions on one piece leads to another even if you try and avoid knowing Yes, but you need the sufficient information first. Yes, you do Yes, I do So what is the source of the information? personal experience And did your God lead you to these experiences? I don't know it may have been alamark's deity leading alamark, and I was along for the ride Assuming all of these deities are truly created by God, they will obey his will. They would not lead you to information that you were not meant to have. Although perhaps they themselves might not know the reasons why they do as they do. * Kasin sighs I think we are getting entangled in semantics here You are defining god as the highest possible layer in any given setting. if I define a layer, you define another one above that and call it god * Kasin looks frustrated There must be a True God. How could true Goodness be divided? Do you consider yourself good? No. But I do my best to become so. Goodness is not a state, it is a path. so you aren't good? (looks surprised) it is also a state No, but I strive to be. I cannot be purely good because I am mortal. the sky is blue, even if it is not purely blue True. There are degrees of good, and I would consider myself to be more good than some I have met. However I was talking of the absolute, since we started by talking of God. * Kasin sighs --> alamark (~sophie@host88.ichr.uwa.edu.au) has joined #rpg2 bing want me to log out? yes ok back soon <-- alamark (~sophie@host88.ichr.uwa.edu.au) has left #rpg2 if you are good, would you consider (your friend) to also be good? Yes. just as the sky can be blue, even a perfect blue, it doesn't stop anything else from being blue, even perfect blue. the same with goodness that said, Morn is the deity of goodness, and the leader of the gods of good How do you judge a perfect blue? * Kasin smiles I don't know. perhaps someone who is an expert in colour could advise Even the so-called experts might differ in thei opinion. Unless you can find one who is the ultimate expert. (their opinions) but they could define it, by the definition of 'blue' couldn't they? even if they couldn't agree on what was perfect blue They could define it, yes. But only by using terms that they also couldn't point to. And they could certainly not produce one. They might agree on a "best" one that they could produce, and call that perfect. But it may not be. I can not point to good either. I can point to soemthing which is good, or blue however It would seem that blue is a concept which is quite complicated, and there can be several ideas, which of which is blue, or good, but who differ in the execution True. So a person could be good, or a sky blue, but neither would be perfect in either way. as a mortal, it's not possible Pb nods. so we retrun to the idea of multiple gods, each of which is Good, but each in a different way, some even in opposing ways yet all are Good True. But there must be a perfect Good above them. not necessarily they can all be perfect good That would imply more than one type of perfect Good, which is a contradiction. it depends on how you define it doesn't it? I suppose so, yes. You can see how there can be several "good"s though? Yes. But I still say there must be a Greater Good. why? each good is perfectly good There I don't agree. why not? As I said, I don't believe that there can be different types of perfect Good. If they differ and are different, they can't be perfect. why not? If they are all perfect they must be the same. otherwise they would only be different aspects of perfection, and hence not complete. true yet something which is complete is thus not completely good it it must contain elements which can be defined as non-good I don't agree. * Kasin nods I don't think we are going to get anywhere here No, shall we agree to disagree on this point? * Kasin nods sadly (OK, call Sophie back on?) (umm, hang on) so, what do you think about other deities then? Assuming you are willing to allow that there _are_ other deities If there are other deities, as you call them, they are obviously higher versions of the immortals. They might be good, but none of them would be perfect. so... Well, if they are created by God, then anyone worshipping them would actually be worshipping God. Indirectly. * Kasin sighs Trying to sort the infidels from the believers would be very difficult. since by that definition everyone worships god it would be very difficult indeed Ab nods. So how do you resolve this? It will need to be discussed. At length. It won't be popular, since it will delay the Jihad. Of course, much will depend on whether you are truly a prophet. It would seem that the Jihad is the end, not the means For some, yes. How can you accept that? I have little choice. I can only pray that they do God's work, as I think they do. * Kasin is looking quite frustrated I get the feeling that any amount of convoluted logic will be preformed, provided it allows what people want to do anyway to happen or at least, what someone wants everyone to do True, if you assume that the Someone is God. yes, but it isn't How so? --> alamark (~sophie@host88.ichr.uwa.edu.au) has joined #rpg2 * alamark is back how about now? (ummm, I suppose as good a time as any) (*nod*) (ps: muahahahaha! now you know what it's like :) ah, alamark How about op-ing me? we were just discussing the information about the sujugation of this place --- Kasin gives channel operator status to alamark --- GM has changed the topic to: In a strange desert land... Ab: Subjugation? conquering, enslaving, whatever you like to call it Soem of us had just been called prophets, if I remember correctly There was that debate and we were at whatshisname's house, deciding what to do next Ab: Harsh words. * Kasin shrugs (Kasin looks frustrated and slightly angry) (Yes, Sophie. And you've walked into the middle of a convo. :) Ab: (to Alamark) Kasin was telling me that God may have created a range of deities. Um... * Kasin sighs OOC: Who are we talking to? No, this is your interpretation of anything I say Ab: I am merely trying to put a reasonable interpretation on your words. In your view. I accept that this is your view, but please don't restate this to others _as_ my view --- GM has changed the topic to: In a strange desert land... with someone more stubborn than Kasin. I would prefer that you clearly stated that this is your view Ab: My apologies. Accepted OOC: Who are we talking to? Pharid Abdin. (Your host.) anyway... I was speaking about the idea of multiple deities of Good Ab: Yes. now I think it best if we drop this subject and discuss what we are going to do next Ab: Very well. So if Abi-Dalzim tests us, what sort of things is he likely to do? Ab: I am afraid I do not know. I understand that the church wish him to enspell you in a way that you couldn't resist if you are not prophets. perhaps we should simply speak with abidalzim, to find our his motives hmmm, I hope he doesn't mean avatars by that Ab: His motives? Eek He'd probably use TDs then yes, probably Ab: TDs? if he uses a sufficiently powerful one, we can't resist that rtue dweomers. spells more morepwerful 9th level (we said that last session to him and his friend) Ab: Hmm... I know that AD has mastered spells of the ninth level, but beyond that... ? Ab: Ah well, I don't know much about magic. We know he has mastered spells of at lesat 8th, since we have heard of one of his spells before, which is 8th Ab: He has mastered 9th. I have heard him say so. Ab: Which makes his the most powerful mage in our lands. * Kasin nods We should get the others (You do so.) (as in R, M, etc) (ok) We were just discussing what to do, amongst other things (other window hannes) * Kasin seems distracted Something wrong, Kasin? Router problems? (That last bit was ooc :) No, I'm fine * alamark looks at Renik I was suggesting we speak to AD himself and ask him Renik nods slightly, although he is frowning. although it will tip our hand Ab: I can try to arrange a meeting in the morning, if you like? Or maybe tonight if necessary. A question for you, PA why are you helping us? because we are your guests? Ab: I believe that you are prophets. why? Ab: The prediction. And I am a good judge of character, I believe that you believe what you say. Ab: Apart from that, just a feeling I have. Well, we haven't said that we are prophets although I am glad of your support stubborn though you may be (smiling) Ab smiles. Ab: I believe I have met my match. ah! you haven't seen nothing yet! * Kasin is smiling * alamark sighs and smiles Beorn grins. well, what do people think of speaking to AD? Mitsumi: Would he give us a useful answer? And would us asking give away more than we get? well, it might get things over quickly Hopefully, not if we keep asking the questions Mi: Yes, perhaps the wrong sort of quickly. * Kasin shrugs it will probably come to that anyway the best alternative is to go and see about a heart M: Hmm... R: I agree. We need more information before we make a decision. How? Doing so is very difficult here R: AD. so...we talk to AD anyway? yep R: Yes. We can't make a decision on a choice for the temple if we don't talk to him. well, thats what I was suggesting anwyay Ab: I will go and try to make an appointment. ok (He does so.) (ok) (sophie? you there?) Ab returns, around an hour later. And? Ab: AD will see you immediately. He seems quite impressed by you. hmmm okaayyy.... well, we go (You're off to see the ... mage, the wonderful mage of ... umm... somewhere I haven't named yet.) You are taken to a place near the temple. A mansion much like the others around it. Less impressive than Ab's. It does however have an extensive garden. * Kasin nods AD will meet you in the garden, near flowering bushes that give off a strong aroma. (Hibiscus?) nope\ AD: Greetings, travellers. Greetings hi (Can't remmeber the dang name of the bush. RHododendron? Magnolia? Big white flowers anyway...) magnolia AD: You have questions for me? Yes * Kasin looks at R R: We need more information before we can make a choice. R: Both about how you would test us, and about the Heart of the Dragon. AD: Very well. AD: I would test you by having you taken into the desert and then casting a spell to turn the spirit of the desert against you. I see nasty spell I take it? AD: Such a spell can destroy an army. You will only survive if God protects you. AD: Very nasty, yes. So we would not be permitted or able to use our own abilities, then? AD: Of course you would. They wouldn't protect you unless God was on your side, however. is this a true dweomer? AD: No, it is not. AD: The power of the spell lies not so much in the magick itself, but in the desert. AD: The spell merely wakes it, and gives it a target. Have you used this spell on other before? AD: Yes. I used it against the armies of . They died to a man. why did you do this? (You will have heard the story.) Defence? (According to the story there was much politics at the time, and a traitor had managed to get most of the army sent to defend against an attack elsewhere - one that never came.) (kasin still asks) (The enemy army wasn't going to be stopped by arms, so AD went and wiped them.) AD: To protect the church, of course. I see why? AD: The would have razed this city to the ground, slain its inhabitants, and defiled the church. They had to be stopped. * Kasin nods Do you have any questions you would like to ask us? AD: Yes, many. But I will wait until the test has passed. Whichever one you choose. What can you tell us about the heart? AD: I would advise against entering the Heart. It is evil, and no good will come of it. Can you tell us anything? AD: About? about the heart AD: Well, it was the heart of a powerful dragon. One of the immortals of evil, I believe. AD: After the prophet defeated it, he found that even he could not detroy the dragon totally. * Kasin nods What colour dragon? AD: So he cut out the heart and charged me with its safety. AD: Black as midnight, it was. AD: The heart is evil. Any entering it will be struck down unless they are truly pure. So the prophet told me. AD: And even those who are pure will be tested. have you ever entered it? AD: No. AD: I am powerful, but hardly pure. So how did it get in the vault? AD: It was carried in by a group of bearers. It may be touched, you see, just not entered. what do you mean, entered? AD: The dragon was huge, and so is the Heart. There is a hole in one side of it, so one may step right in to one of the chambers. Has it decayed or something? AD: Decayed? No, it still beats. How do you ward it? AD: Mainly I set wards to keep the foolish out, but I have also devised a way to somewhat blunt it's presence. do you think it's presence may still leak out and affect people? AD: Given my efforts and the holyness of it's surroundings I would think not. oh I'm willing to brave the heart AD: I would advise against it, but it will be a true test. Would we be able to get near the heart, say in the corridor outside? * Kasin shrugs AD: Not unless you are taking the test. And even then, I would not want more than one of you to undertake it. One would be enough of a risk. I'm not sure, but I'm willing. perhaps there is a way to destroy it. there is always a way AD: Very well. But if it affects you, then you will have to be slain. Guest or not. Ab looks grim. I hope it won't * Kasin sighs any objections? anyone think I'm being foolish? M: Yes, but with good reason.